It's worth noting that this offloads the KYC/AML component to someone else down the road, but doesn't protect you from possible money laundering risk (e.g., you send USDC to a sanctioned individual who launders it into monero or something else). I'm no lawyer but I did work on Stripe Connect's compliance pieces for five years and I would NOT take the risk of (as a business) sending money to USDC addresses without actually verifying identities.
It also doesn't offer you protection against fraud (which is a huge problem that marketplaces face).
Frankly the missing piece to this is a real, actual identity verification component. If you're not checking identities against sanctions lists at the absolute minimum, you're not doing your due diligence. I wouldn't take that risk. The last thing you need is to be on the receiving end of a US Treasury inquiry.
Appreciate you raising this, especially given your Connect experience.
This is a fair concern. Zoneless does verify the identity of payout recipients through Didit, and marketplaces can require KYC before the first payout. We also have support for blocking OFAC-listed wallet addresses, and also have additional checks to flag suspicious behaviour.
I agree that KYC doesn't eliminate marketplace fraud, though. That's true with Stripe Connect too; Stripe explicitly leaves platforms responsible for monitoring and preventing fraudulent activity even though it handles KYC and provides risk tooling.
I think the area I could make much clearer in the docs is the distinction between identity verification, sanctions screening, and marketplace fraud prevention.
How do you handle refunds & chargebacks? And do you have a maximum amount that can be charged?
For context - I'm building a marketplace for artists and struggling to find a global payouts rail. The ones that exist have really high turnover requirements or reject new marketplaces that deal with higher value physical items due to chargeback risk.
Totally get this - one reason I built this was due to the risk of being shut down or rejected from a traditional payment platform. With this there's no risk of being rejected as 1) you can self-host it yourself, and 2) everything is self-custodial on the managed hosting version.
This is mainly for the payout side, but there is a working stablecoin checkout / payments /subscription system in the project - there's no limit on charges, and there are no chargebacks possible because it uses stablecoins.
There are others that use stablecoins but also handle the legal side like KYC and AML, I was looking at Coinflow for one, so you're probably better off using them.
Definitely other options out there. The main difference is Zoneless is open-source and self-hostable, so there's no transaction fees charged on top. Zoneless has KYC built in via Didit along with additional risk / compliance tools also.
The marketplace is called PromptBase, which I've been bootstrapping for the past few years (now around ~500k users).
Thanks for this feedback, that could be clearer - the $6 is the total network fees for the underlying rails if you were self-hosting (about $0.002/transaction). The managed hosting option is just if you don't want to host it and run it yourself.
Yes it uses USDC behind the scenes, which is regulated, fully reserved, and designed to stay at $1 (very different to USDT) - there's no Stripe behind the scenes, it's completely independent.
I totally understand where you're coming from, because I felt the exact same, but stablecoins specifically do not suffer from the same crypto crowd problem. They are just a very boring, elegant way of moving money cheaply.
yeah USDC seems more legitimate but banking risk I wonder if it changed since the silicon valley bank situation where it depegged to something like 80 cents on the dollar and USDT still hasn't published their audit despite KPMG signing off on it....
its these systematic risks that makes me wary but I understand your product now and I think that it makes sense but do you need Stripe approval ? how will i take card without stripe ?
stripe is very strict about certain categories
great work and thanks for explaining in detail but as a crypto skeptic I think I finally see one use case here that is legitimate.
my only gripe is "where do i get usdc and how to keep it safely" coinbase, metamask....these things add a lot of friction and exchange fees where i have to turn USDC into USD those have to be considered
A good way to operate this is to keep using a regular payment processor for checkout, but use this for payouts, so you can still accept cards and enjoy fee savings (there's a prompt on the homepage that will set it up for you just like this).
Zoneless is completely independent of Stripe, you do not need Stripe approval or a Stripe account to run it. We have some beginner guides in our docs for handling topping up / exchanges. I use Kraken+, which is about $5/month and removes trading fees.
Would it work to also charge a modest refundable fee (say $1 per month) from sellers via Stripe or someone else who does KYC, and then use that as a base of "this person has been flagged as known" to solve most KYC concerns in this post?
Yes, this is exactly what it does! To confirm, Zoneless does have KYC built in - its a bring your own API key system that plugs right in, and you get 500 free verification checks per month via Didit. There are guides in the docs on how this all works.
very good thanks again for your replies ive never dealt with crypto hence these questions i think stablecoins and zoneless makes a lot of sense, stripe connect is very expensive.
for keeping regular payment processor for checkout....is that stripe? aren't they looking and evaluating your marketplace and then saying yes or no still ? or do you mean to use a high risk processor?
You can use whichever you like - but yes you will have to abide by their terms.
Zoneless has an open-source checkout to accept payments/subscriptions via stablecoins if you wanted a completely self-hosted alternative. I am very aware that not everyone wants to pay via stablecoins yet, though. People are very open to being paid with them, hence why it works well for payouts.
That's a fair question. I've been building Fiber for it — hold USDC without a seed phrase or MetaMask, email login, bank rails if you want dollars. https://fiber.so
Also, what I find, well, let's just say "entertaining" here in the HN comments is that some posters (who don't do very well at identifying themselves!) complain about the as-of-yet-somewhat-"imperfect" (let's just say) at this point in time KYC and identity verification of customers aspects of this thing... (you have to love the double standard there!)
Forgive me for saying this, but aren't all Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrency transactions (at least in all cryptocurrencies that don't track identity) subject to the KYC and identity verification complaint?
In other words, you've got the tiniest of fishes in this pond, Ben, and he's trying to do the right thing, and he at least is a little bit accountable to "the spirit and letter" of doing the right thing -- whereas all of the other black-box cryptocurrencies DO NOT do anything KYC or identity verification wise.
Yet you other posters, you other critics -- are willing to see the "mote in Ben's eye" whereas you are not willing to see the "beam" in your own -- all of the other black-box cryptocurrency, foreign currency, and other systems for trade/transactions that you do not control.
Ye hypocrites!
I have nothing to say to you... half of you are people with agendas paid off by dark money funds, and half of you are bots, also paid off by dark money funds.
Ben, you are on the right track, you are doing the right thing!
Ignore what all of these crackpots, cranks, and agenda-driven paid-for-by-dark-money naysayers have to say!
You always see them, en masse, on any HN article that is halfway political or halfway financial.
They are always hypocritical, always willing to railroad discussions to their political and/or financial ends.
They never observe the bigger issues, and if you debate them they will railroad the debate into corner cases and use those corner cases to make you look bad!
So, getting back to the software, I like it, I think it's absolutely brilliant!
And I'm a human being with a real name, real flesh and blood, and I can own every single damn thing I say on HN, every single damn comment I make, without ever hiding behind an alias!
(Maybe HN should implement a "KYP" policy. That is, a Know Your Poster. policy... That is, know the person making the comments...)
Yes, its mainly for marketplace operators / creator platforms right now to pay sellers, specifically global marketplaces where Stripe Connect may not support the country of the seller. Microtransaction marketplaces (transactions < $10) or so also are nearly impossible to operate profitably under the current fee models of Stripe Connect / PayPal would also benefit.
Hey thanks! I appreciate that. Nothing in particular; I overhauled the design pretty recently and wrote about it on my blog if you're interested (in my HN bio)
It's worth noting that this offloads the KYC/AML component to someone else down the road, but doesn't protect you from possible money laundering risk (e.g., you send USDC to a sanctioned individual who launders it into monero or something else). I'm no lawyer but I did work on Stripe Connect's compliance pieces for five years and I would NOT take the risk of (as a business) sending money to USDC addresses without actually verifying identities.
It also doesn't offer you protection against fraud (which is a huge problem that marketplaces face).
Frankly the missing piece to this is a real, actual identity verification component. If you're not checking identities against sanctions lists at the absolute minimum, you're not doing your due diligence. I wouldn't take that risk. The last thing you need is to be on the receiving end of a US Treasury inquiry.
Appreciate you raising this, especially given your Connect experience.
This is a fair concern. Zoneless does verify the identity of payout recipients through Didit, and marketplaces can require KYC before the first payout. We also have support for blocking OFAC-listed wallet addresses, and also have additional checks to flag suspicious behaviour.
I agree that KYC doesn't eliminate marketplace fraud, though. That's true with Stripe Connect too; Stripe explicitly leaves platforms responsible for monitoring and preventing fraudulent activity even though it handles KYC and provides risk tooling.
I think the area I could make much clearer in the docs is the distinction between identity verification, sanctions screening, and marketplace fraud prevention.
The website design and art are beautiful, well done.
Thanks, really appreciate that!
How do you handle refunds & chargebacks? And do you have a maximum amount that can be charged?
For context - I'm building a marketplace for artists and struggling to find a global payouts rail. The ones that exist have really high turnover requirements or reject new marketplaces that deal with higher value physical items due to chargeback risk.
Totally get this - one reason I built this was due to the risk of being shut down or rejected from a traditional payment platform. With this there's no risk of being rejected as 1) you can self-host it yourself, and 2) everything is self-custodial on the managed hosting version.
This is mainly for the payout side, but there is a working stablecoin checkout / payments /subscription system in the project - there's no limit on charges, and there are no chargebacks possible because it uses stablecoins.
Should also be noted that you have a fantastic handwritten blog that everybody should subscribe to. Keep up the good work!
Thank you good sir!
There are others that use stablecoins but also handle the legal side like KYC and AML, I was looking at Coinflow for one, so you're probably better off using them.
Definitely other options out there. The main difference is Zoneless is open-source and self-hostable, so there's no transaction fees charged on top. Zoneless has KYC built in via Didit along with additional risk / compliance tools also.
Cool project, what is your marketplace you are referring to if not a secret?
Also the pricing is not very clear - you mention your costs went down to $6, but the first paid tier is $99/month ?
The marketplace is called PromptBase, which I've been bootstrapping for the past few years (now around ~500k users).
Thanks for this feedback, that could be clearer - the $6 is the total network fees for the underlying rails if you were self-hosting (about $0.002/transaction). The managed hosting option is just if you don't want to host it and run it yourself.
Out of interest, how is it going with PromptBase? Love the idea, does it have legs -- ie are you making money?
Going good thanks - it was a tiny side project that span out into being my full time job for the past few years :) A lot of fun to run also.
How do you compare to https://usedots.com/?
Zoneless is open-source, self-hostable and has no transaction fees
read it again, ah this is USDC but not sure if that is still safe, i know tether has a lot of issues and fragility and some very dodgy stuff
so take normal cards then pay out in USDC....is that safe?
Yes it uses USDC behind the scenes, which is regulated, fully reserved, and designed to stay at $1 (very different to USDT) - there's no Stripe behind the scenes, it's completely independent.
I totally understand where you're coming from, because I felt the exact same, but stablecoins specifically do not suffer from the same crypto crowd problem. They are just a very boring, elegant way of moving money cheaply.
yeah USDC seems more legitimate but banking risk I wonder if it changed since the silicon valley bank situation where it depegged to something like 80 cents on the dollar and USDT still hasn't published their audit despite KPMG signing off on it....
its these systematic risks that makes me wary but I understand your product now and I think that it makes sense but do you need Stripe approval ? how will i take card without stripe ?
stripe is very strict about certain categories
great work and thanks for explaining in detail but as a crypto skeptic I think I finally see one use case here that is legitimate.
my only gripe is "where do i get usdc and how to keep it safely" coinbase, metamask....these things add a lot of friction and exchange fees where i have to turn USDC into USD those have to be considered
A good way to operate this is to keep using a regular payment processor for checkout, but use this for payouts, so you can still accept cards and enjoy fee savings (there's a prompt on the homepage that will set it up for you just like this).
Zoneless is completely independent of Stripe, you do not need Stripe approval or a Stripe account to run it. We have some beginner guides in our docs for handling topping up / exchanges. I use Kraken+, which is about $5/month and removes trading fees.
Would it work to also charge a modest refundable fee (say $1 per month) from sellers via Stripe or someone else who does KYC, and then use that as a base of "this person has been flagged as known" to solve most KYC concerns in this post?
Yes, this is exactly what it does! To confirm, Zoneless does have KYC built in - its a bring your own API key system that plugs right in, and you get 500 free verification checks per month via Didit. There are guides in the docs on how this all works.
very good thanks again for your replies ive never dealt with crypto hence these questions i think stablecoins and zoneless makes a lot of sense, stripe connect is very expensive.
for keeping regular payment processor for checkout....is that stripe? aren't they looking and evaluating your marketplace and then saying yes or no still ? or do you mean to use a high risk processor?
You can use whichever you like - but yes you will have to abide by their terms.
Zoneless has an open-source checkout to accept payments/subscriptions via stablecoins if you wanted a completely self-hosted alternative. I am very aware that not everyone wants to pay via stablecoins yet, though. People are very open to being paid with them, hence why it works well for payouts.
That's a fair question. I've been building Fiber for it — hold USDC without a seed phrase or MetaMask, email login, bank rails if you want dollars. https://fiber.so
I love your product and looks very slick!
Can I play devil's advocate though?
Don't you think in 1-2 years most banks (NA + EU) will offer 1:1 stablecoin conversions and make this no longer a problem?
I think it's absolutely brilliant!
Also, what I find, well, let's just say "entertaining" here in the HN comments is that some posters (who don't do very well at identifying themselves!) complain about the as-of-yet-somewhat-"imperfect" (let's just say) at this point in time KYC and identity verification of customers aspects of this thing... (you have to love the double standard there!)
Forgive me for saying this, but aren't all Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrency transactions (at least in all cryptocurrencies that don't track identity) subject to the KYC and identity verification complaint?
In other words, you've got the tiniest of fishes in this pond, Ben, and he's trying to do the right thing, and he at least is a little bit accountable to "the spirit and letter" of doing the right thing -- whereas all of the other black-box cryptocurrencies DO NOT do anything KYC or identity verification wise.
Yet you other posters, you other critics -- are willing to see the "mote in Ben's eye" whereas you are not willing to see the "beam" in your own -- all of the other black-box cryptocurrency, foreign currency, and other systems for trade/transactions that you do not control.
Ye hypocrites!
I have nothing to say to you... half of you are people with agendas paid off by dark money funds, and half of you are bots, also paid off by dark money funds.
Ben, you are on the right track, you are doing the right thing!
Ignore what all of these crackpots, cranks, and agenda-driven paid-for-by-dark-money naysayers have to say!
You always see them, en masse, on any HN article that is halfway political or halfway financial.
They are always hypocritical, always willing to railroad discussions to their political and/or financial ends.
They never observe the bigger issues, and if you debate them they will railroad the debate into corner cases and use those corner cases to make you look bad!
So, getting back to the software, I like it, I think it's absolutely brilliant!
And I'm a human being with a real name, real flesh and blood, and I can own every single damn thing I say on HN, every single damn comment I make, without ever hiding behind an alias!
(Maybe HN should implement a "KYP" policy. That is, a Know Your Poster. policy... That is, know the person making the comments...)
Anyway, way to go, Ben!
Thanks for the support Peter, I appreciate it!
Beuatiful website! I sent you an email!
thank you!
Who's your target customer, marketplace owners?
Yes, its mainly for marketplace operators / creator platforms right now to pay sellers, specifically global marketplaces where Stripe Connect may not support the country of the seller. Microtransaction marketplaces (transactions < $10) or so also are nearly impossible to operate profitably under the current fee models of Stripe Connect / PayPal would also benefit.
I really like the feel to your website. Are there are any websites or apps that you took inspiration from for your design?
Hey thanks! I appreciate that. Nothing in particular; I overhauled the design pretty recently and wrote about it on my blog if you're interested (in my HN bio)
Hey I just read your blog post. Im curious now what zoneless used to look like...
I think there's a few screenshots in some older posts!