Everybody just assumes they're the only thing hitting your inbox, like I don't also have "engagement" messages from 3 other stores I bought shit from two years back, plus PG&E trying to convince me to install a meter that can turn off my A/C remotely, plus Nextdoor trying to update me because somebody thinks they heard a gunshot...
> Everybody just assumes they're the only thing hitting your inbox
They know your inbox has 100s of competing senders and their message could get lost, that's why they spam. A large number of people don't curate their inbox, never unsubscribe and just make do reading 20% of their messages.
Texting is the new email. I have about a half dozen or more email addresses and very few of them get used nowadays.
The funny thing is I just moved all my email over to Fairmail and did several other things to try and "degoogle" my life. The funny thing was as soon as I got Fairmail installed, I finally realized how much spam was hitting even my gmail inboxes, but since gmail and outlook both filter them into separate folders, I never saw them. Fairmail has the ability to do the same, but it was really good for me to go through and unsubscribe and block the rest.
Now I barely get any spam from any of my accounts so life is a lot easier now. Another example of how these companies make it easy to not do anything and just have it out of sight.
This, plus the fact if they don't overcommunicate and send you 10 transactional emails (eg. "your order is still on its way!") they'll have people filing credit card disputes and BBB complaints, blasting support screaming this-site-is-a-scam-where-is-my-order!?? over a two day shipping delay.
This HN thread reads like a fun Chesterton's fence exercise.
New engineer shows up the first week on the job: "10 emails? You guys are all stupid this only needs to be 3 emails...receipt, shipped, and feedback!"
Whole team groans, having to explain yet again the many years of scar tissue behind exactly why every one of the 10 emails exists.
I am getting furious when I read advice like "you should spend time to talk to your customers".
It feels like people giving such advice never really did anything in actual marketing/sales. Mostly because single company uses dozen if not more applications, no one gives a flying fuck about your application and if they would spend time giving feedback to each app they use, they won't have time to their job.
Yes you can get customer time - but it is not "just talk to the customers", if you get one having a day or 2 hours or 1 hour you take it or you might never hear from them again or hear from them again in 2 years or maybe 6 months. CUSTOMER TIME IS SOMETHING SUPER SPECIAL not something "maybe you should do that".
So for developers out there — your sales guy just had a chat with a customer he has another meeting with him in 2 weeks - it is not like he is making up deadline, he needs to show something, anything moving forward to keep the customer hooked and maybe have another meeting with the guy and if has nothing to show it might be back in years or never...
Of course I myself am using shitload of apps and services in my work and I don't give a fuck what they do and don't want them to bother me if I have a subscription, unless they break something then I am going to write an angry e-mail to them (I do understand they might have a problem, as mentioned I am working on B2B SaaS myself) but angry mail works better (maybe not for latest Anthropic Opus).
This actually misses some, namely the "your order is out for delivery" email which precedes the "your order is delivered one". And some places might split up the delivery into parts so you get even more despite being delivered together (in some cases in the same box!).
Worse is if they require a phone number then text you each and every step as well as email you. Some places you can "opt out" of texting but then the next order will just repeat the process.
All I want is an order confirmed email, and an order shipped email with the tracking number. I get maybe some people want a "delivered" email but I don't even want that, I'll see it, it can sit there an hour it's ok; if it's something really important I'll be looking at the tracking anyhow.
And while I'm complaining, it sure would be great to get rid of the syrupy language some use: "Get excited!!! Your order is being packed!!!!" Yes, I am glad I will receive a bunch of paper towels, but it is, I can assure you, not exciting.
P.S. edit: I just got two emails a few minutes ago (both for the same single order) stating that my order was on the way and would arrive... in twenty minutes. Which I think is a new one, I don't think I've gotten an "your order is less than half hour away" email before.
Most don't spam texts, but those that do I've switched out. And yeah, I should probably use a fake number so whoever has Jenny's number in my area code doesn't get messages about how a toilet tank gasket is being delivered from Home Depot to my house...
In contrast I’m a fan of the overeager messages for actual updates like these presented.
It is just when after said delivery that I then end up on a mailing list where I get sent something seemingly daily from a single vendor that I’m less pleased.
Same here. Back in 1999 buying something of a yahoo market website was a crapshoot and you didn’t know what was going on till you got it. I have no issue with overzealous updates. But after that; go away! I know you exist.
It's honestly one of his worst videos, but Jon Bois has quite thoroughly documented how many mattresses they tried to sell him as a result of him buying a mattress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n36R8xlhe1U
I strongly suspect that "Do not send me marketing emails" at checkout time ACTUALLY means "Wait 6 months before sending me marketing emails, when I might plausibly forget that I checked this box", because I always do my best to opt out of mailing lists and I always seem to start getting stuff anyway 6-12 months after making a purchase. The Silicon Valley model of consent strikes again.
They classify it as "transactional" emails (like what is supposed to be order receipts, shipping updates, etc) and so "decide" they can send you an "order update" to an "existing customer with a business relationship" 6 months later, instead of adding you to the spam list immediately.
I just received a marketing email from Dell, and in the footer they claimed it was a transactional message. The last transaction I made with them was 3 years ago!
It's insane - I rarely want marketing emails (there are some I do, new products from Saddleback Leather are always interesting) but when I do actually find out about some new product that's desirable, I find that I never get marketing emails for it, even if I'm signed up to things you would think would cover it!
Apple knows who I am, what I've bought, and I'm not unsubscribed from all, and yet they've never told me about the Neo, though they did send me an email talking about the event that might have been the one that revealed it.
I actually really enjoy getting this sequence of emails but I use Gmail’s auto categorization so it just goes in the “Updates” folder and gets auto-forwarded to my claw-like so it’s not super interrupty. I prefer to have the full trace on my side rather than on the provider side because their site might go down and so on.
I can see why people get annoyed. It’s just the alternative that I really dislike.
This way I can do all analysis on my own side or search for status on my side. I prefer to own the data and have it pushed in a timely manner.
All I need when I buy something online is the shipping tracking number. That's it. I don't need an invoice. What am I going to do with that, print it out and stare at it? I don't need constant tracking updates. I can get these myself with the tracking number. I don't need to know it was delivered (again, tracking number, and I can also just look on the porch with my eyeballs). I don't need any of the other sales-spam that always seems to accompany these orders. An online merchant shouldn't even need my E-mail address. I should be able to click "buy" and the next page shows me the tracking number. That's the only relationship I want with you!
I would never want to not receive a receipt for an online purchase unless it was a $5 doodad that I didn’t even care if it arrived. You are out there on that one. If i want to know when i bought something for a warranty searching my email is the way.
The sales spam is obviously out of control though. But i just have a separate email address for shopping and a filter that marks anything with the word unsubscribe or manage your preferences as read and puts it in a folder I never open. I shouldn’t have to do that but i shouldn’t have to run an adblocker either.
An invoice/receipt is often necessary for booking purposes, reimbursements, taxes, etc. But to your point, just put it in the same email as the tracking number and move on.
I appreciate having a receipt. There are plenty of times when I’ve had to look up info about a past purchase. When did I buy it? How much did it cost last time? Which model did I end up choosing?
Certainly not for every product but enough that I appreciate it
I'm particularly fond of the senders who know there are nominally laws about spam, so they just label every piece of marketing and customer retention garbage as pertaining to your user account, or they layer some subscription-related language over a promotion al email. I uploaded photos to a printing service over a decade ago and long since unsubscribed from their marketing lists. Two months ago they started sending me bi-weekly "reminders" that my old photos would be purged soon but offering me a discount subscription to their cloud storage. They then sent me at least three weekly reminders. The thing is, none of the links in the email would send me to the page to download old information (which it turns out I had already done years ago, presumably on prompt of some other spam) or information on deleting that content myself.
The other classic of the genre is mailing list software that stores opt-out preferences separate of customer account data such that when they move to a different marketing service or their retention policy tolls out you start getting spam again, exactly 5 years after you opted out.
Poland is always like this, for "good" reasons. The American shopping experience is a breath of fresh air in comparison.
Our workflow is often something like this:
1. "Verify your account" (before you buy).
2. Order has been accepted.
3. [From the payment gateway, we typically don't do credit cards for online transactions]: Payment required.
4. [Your bank, via a push notification]: Please confirm this transaction, typical EU overregulation 3D Secure crap.
5. [Your bank, Push]: Card payment.
6. [Payment gateway, after you're redirected to their site and complete payment] Payment succeeded.
7. [Store]: We have received your payment.
8. [Store, one business day later]: Here's the invoice you requested. Spoiler, no invoice was actually requested.
9. [Store]: Here's the tracking number for your parcel.
10. [Parcel Delivery app, you practically need one to open parcel lockers, our favorite method for getting almost anything, if you don't want to deal with the hassle of SMS]: Your parcel has been registered.
10. [Parcel app]: Your parcel is on the way.
11. [Parcel app] Your parcel is ready for collection.
12. [Store]: Your package has been delivered.
Most of these are no-opt-out.
That list doesn't include any marketing, "how did you like your Order" or "Please review this Seller" emails. If there's another intermediary in the mix, like Allegro (our local Amazon / eBay alternative that most people order from), there can sometimes be a bunch more.
Interesting how you need a separate app to open parcel lockers in Poland. In the Czech Republic the locker provider just sends you an email/SMS (as a part of the "ready for collection" message) with a code that you type on the locker's keyboard, which is sometimes physical, sometimes a touch screen, and the locker opens, no app needed.
Never give out your email. Just hand out proxy addresses. Have a couple in your wallet\phone casing for when you need to give one right away without time to generate it.
No spam. Or if you get some, one click to stop receiving mail from a specific proxy.
Takes some using to, and some work each time you give out an email address. But so does sifting through a ton of spam, because you didn't care enough to only give out a proxy address.
The worst abusers are the ones that mix vital emails with marketing and fluff. In the US you have to deal with the Social Security Administration your entire adult life. You need to deal with them while paying into the program during the working years and also while cashing out in retirement. So you can't just ignore communications with them, but yet most emails are fluff like holiday greetings, reminders not to be scammed (which are repeats of the same advice they gave in all previous emails).
Banks also do this, but they at least use the same subject lines that I can auto-filter.
I do this. But I hit a wall with shopify. They only allow 5 email addresses to be bound to an account and only one account to one phone number. So now I cannot get tracking information from about a dozen online stores that at some point or another switched to shopify after I already made a custom email for them
I've been using Proton Mail and iOS (through iCloud+) for this. Almost every purchase online goes through a proxy, and once the item is delivered, the email deleted.
This has a side benefit of being able to sign up to the popup modals for like, 10-20% off a first purchase.
Some sites do not parse the emails correctly though (if they contain periods, etc) and it's also hard to order track.
I find it's worth the trouble to have a relatively quiet inbox.
I use a wildcard proxy. Like msg-BUSINESS@example.com. Each business gets it's own alias. I can just generate them at the point of sale without any prior configuration.
If a particular business annoys me it's quite easy to start managing their emails separately.
Incredibly useful for when a company gets acquired and their old transactional email database is turned into a marketing database.
I've internalized the delete shortcut in gmail and configured one of the swipe directions in the app to be delete. For a long time, I archived every email, but there's so much crap like this now to wade through.
I also discovered that a busy local mailing list was sending images as attachments that counted against my quota, so even more incentive to delete instead of archive.
Assuming the message actually contains information, and not a login link, lots of email updates is great. It means I automatically get a local copy of the message stored, so if I want to look it up, I have it immediately available, regardless of my current network connectivity.
I use Gmail's support for aliases, by putting a '+' symbol after my user name, followed by a alias, so that the messages can be easily filtered. I then add the alias to Gmail's server-side filtering to move the message to an IMAP folder for messages from vendors/distributors.
I love the combination of Posteo and Bitwarden. Any email I use has a "+random letters and numbers" generated for that entry to combat spam. If I need better privacy separation, I have my main email with my name, then an alias with random letters and numbers.
Doordash has become better, but they use to do the same thing with notifications:
Your order has been placed! > Your order is being prepared! > Bob is on route to pick up your order! Bob is waiting for your order! Message from Bob: I'm waiting for your order! > Your order has been picked up! > Message from Bob: I'm on my way! > Your order is approaching! > Your order has arrived! > Your order was dropped off! > Please rate your dasher! > etc etc etc
The only reason I never completely turned off notifications was because there was one I actually needed: my order was dropped off...
Your notifications about your orders are bundled with their marketing notifications (on iphone at least). So if you dont want ads, you have to turn off order updates too
I just ordered a dishwasher from Lowes, and that translated to 16 text messages from them, including asking if my address was correct, asking 3 times if the delivery date worked for me. I appreciated 2 of them: Your delivery window is 9:30-1:30, you are stop 7, the driver just finished the delivery before you and is headed your way.
There's a right number of times to text me about a delivery that is going exactly as planned, and 16 is not that number.
Friend of mine told me they bought some music-related item and they got several emails but also an AI generated video of the CEO or something like that personally thanking them for their purchase. Super weird.
The video said something along the lines of "Hey {name} I am the CEO... I want to personally thank you for your purchase".
I can't remember if they bought whatever it is from Instagram through an ad on there so a super social/ad heavy space anyway.
I'll just suggest -- I don't think they have A/B tested the right amount of emails. There was a time when companies optimized this sort of stuff, but the cost of researching that vs. just sending every opportunistic email possible is too great. This doesn't really matter except that we give companies too much credit for stuff like this. They're just kind of...doing stuff, for better or worse.
I gave up on inbox zero a long time ago, so it isn't the emails themselves that bother me as much as the notifications that I get through my phone and smartwatch.
I now run each notification through an LLM and give it instructions on what to filter out. I accidentally disabled it recently and was startled at the flood of notifications--like when you browse the internet without an ad blocker and forget how bad it is.
i am no fan of spam. but i am totally fine (and expect, really) to receive email #s 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 8 on this 10 point list.
- 1 confirms my order was received, and im not left thinking i ordered something when it wasnt processed.
- 3, 4, 6, 7 are all good for ensuring my order didnt get lost in the process and lets me schedule my day if needed.
- proof of delivery (8) is good for records, disputes, or just knowing that i should pop over to my house on lunch so the item isnt sitting outside all day.
however, i do use my own domain and unique addresses per store (e.g. "walmart@example.com" if i need a walmart account for whatever reason), so that if/when companies start doing the "we miss you", "please rate us", "seriously, please rate us, you havent yet :(" or whatever, i can immediately bin it.
catchall is also super convenient for automatically organizing emails. anything with a "to" address of "walmart@example.com" goes straight into the "walmart" folder.
It's better than it was back in the 90s. Imagine that, but as physical mail. Oh, and they sent a separate copy to your billing contact, which was at the same address, and was also you.
Apple hide my email was a great solution to this, I feel like we need a proper open source alternative. Basically a relay inbox that is ephemeral and you can discard once you’re done.
The trustpilot begging emails are the worst IMO. I didn't agree to TP having my email address, so why are they contacting me...again and again and again???
You'd love AliExpress. There's probably 20-25 emails per order as there are so many tracking steps. But I like it, just automatically move them to a folder.
Is there a technical limitation why these never seem to be grouped into a thread? I generally appreciate the updates on my package, but I also value a tidy inbox.
The word has been corrupted beyond all meaning, primarily by Google. GMail has a thing they call "threads", which isn't a threaded view. A threaded view is at least a tree, that shows the actual who-replied-to-who of an email chain, which itself is (hopefully) a DAG.
GMail's "threads" are also heuristically grouped (which is good b/c, as another comment here notes, programmers are terrible at emitting the correct header), but also will just sometimes arbitrarily break emails which do share a common ancestor into separate threads.
As it is, Google has so ruined people's ability to communicate that it is not uncommon to see GMail users reply to the wrong email, b/c they're just replying to the last email in the set of emails sharing a common ancestor.
Now ever third app has "threads", like Slack, where "thread" is a flat, one layer-deep thing, and half the time nobody can tell who is responding to who anymore. (And seemingly nobody understand how to blockquote, either. Half my coworkers use inline code spans for blockquote, for whatever reason.)
pretty soon we won't be reading books or emails. We have have AI filters. Maybe we won't even be reading our friends or partners message either, mostly fluff anyways?
I feel like the author is overly cynical here. You get so many updates because there's so much information available about your delivery, and I for one appreciate having it! I wish there was as standardized format so my e-mail client could just roll it all up into one status box but it's hardly the end of the world.
Actually, four emails, not ten. Author writes as if it’s some conspiracy of sellers and shipping companies to maximise the number of emails. Each sends with any excuse they have.
The email is treated as a drop box of transactional notes that business sends to customers inbox so customer can always find that info if they would have a need.
It’s not frivolous sending that we need to fix but some standard of “receipt” folders, like Gmail auto folders in half-assed way. So these emails bypass inbox directly to special folder. And it should have a standard name so customer service can say “look in your Receipts folder”.
And Two “We received your order” is unnecessary, as well as “create account”. But if they send those it must be working? Or they send even is only handful of people click on them?
Hum... Except for the 2 emails asking for feedback, I don't see any problem with that.
Do you get overwhelmed by emails tracking items you brought? You expect stores not to communicate with you about active contracts you've already paid for and have actions pending from their part? Why exactly do you think that's a problem?
I hate the "Give feedback"/"Review the item you bought ..." emails.
I'm sitting here, fantasizing creating an automation where whenever one of these hits my inbox, I'll have an LLM agent go to the page and give the most negative feedback it can muster.
Throw some items in your cart and enjoy all the emails reminding you to check out, look at similar items, share with your friends, and use discounts before they expire!
"We've delivered your item" I suspect is required from their point of view due to their annoying proclivity to deliver items on a door step instead of where they meant to which is to a person. CYA
Maybe for you it’s a problem, I personally know people that if they don’t get these emails they start calling support services to know where’s the order or what’s the update.
What bothers me is when I give an email at a store for receipt or refund purposes, and they take that as an opt-in to multiple marketing emails per week. And removing myself from the list often takes multiple attempts at "unsubscribe".
If I don't explicitly opt-in to marketing, I should never get marketing. Ahem, Microcenter.
Having proxy addresses is nice. But I can't just kill an alias if I'm using the email for refunds, or if I use the service multiple times. Also don't want to generate and read off alias emails when I'm at a cash register.
Another reason for this is for the seller to protect themselves and give themselves proof against scumbag customers who then lie to get the product for free etc...
The more emails and info you can demonstrate that you sent to the customer the more proof you have in case they try to scam you.
I documented the 13+ emails I received over the course of trying to buy a wallet: https://jfloren.net/b/2022/12/12/0
Everybody just assumes they're the only thing hitting your inbox, like I don't also have "engagement" messages from 3 other stores I bought shit from two years back, plus PG&E trying to convince me to install a meter that can turn off my A/C remotely, plus Nextdoor trying to update me because somebody thinks they heard a gunshot...
> Everybody just assumes they're the only thing hitting your inbox
They know your inbox has 100s of competing senders and their message could get lost, that's why they spam. A large number of people don't curate their inbox, never unsubscribe and just make do reading 20% of their messages.
Same with phone notifications.
Texting is the new email. I have about a half dozen or more email addresses and very few of them get used nowadays.
The funny thing is I just moved all my email over to Fairmail and did several other things to try and "degoogle" my life. The funny thing was as soon as I got Fairmail installed, I finally realized how much spam was hitting even my gmail inboxes, but since gmail and outlook both filter them into separate folders, I never saw them. Fairmail has the ability to do the same, but it was really good for me to go through and unsubscribe and block the rest.
Now I barely get any spam from any of my accounts so life is a lot easier now. Another example of how these companies make it easy to not do anything and just have it out of sight.
without email spam, there wasn't any reason to curate a mailbox.
Don’t unsubscribe - that’s a signal of a live email address. Add a rule filing their domain straight to trash.
My understanding is that this is outdated advice.
There are definitely some vendors who respect an unsubscribe request, and some who don't. No way to tell ahead of time.
I won't buy, ever again, from someone who doesn't respect the unsub request.
In the UK there are legal guarantees, the unsubscribe button nearly always works.
This, plus the fact if they don't overcommunicate and send you 10 transactional emails (eg. "your order is still on its way!") they'll have people filing credit card disputes and BBB complaints, blasting support screaming this-site-is-a-scam-where-is-my-order!?? over a two day shipping delay.
This HN thread reads like a fun Chesterton's fence exercise.
New engineer shows up the first week on the job: "10 emails? You guys are all stupid this only needs to be 3 emails...receipt, shipped, and feedback!"
Whole team groans, having to explain yet again the many years of scar tissue behind exactly why every one of the 10 emails exists.
Well I do know - but I am working on B2B SaaS.
I am getting furious when I read advice like "you should spend time to talk to your customers".
It feels like people giving such advice never really did anything in actual marketing/sales. Mostly because single company uses dozen if not more applications, no one gives a flying fuck about your application and if they would spend time giving feedback to each app they use, they won't have time to their job.
Yes you can get customer time - but it is not "just talk to the customers", if you get one having a day or 2 hours or 1 hour you take it or you might never hear from them again or hear from them again in 2 years or maybe 6 months. CUSTOMER TIME IS SOMETHING SUPER SPECIAL not something "maybe you should do that".
So for developers out there — your sales guy just had a chat with a customer he has another meeting with him in 2 weeks - it is not like he is making up deadline, he needs to show something, anything moving forward to keep the customer hooked and maybe have another meeting with the guy and if has nothing to show it might be back in years or never...
Of course I myself am using shitload of apps and services in my work and I don't give a fuck what they do and don't want them to bother me if I have a subscription, unless they break something then I am going to write an angry e-mail to them (I do understand they might have a problem, as mentioned I am working on B2B SaaS myself) but angry mail works better (maybe not for latest Anthropic Opus).
lol neighbor? Gunshots reclassified as car exhaust but there's a video too. Same one from last night?
This actually misses some, namely the "your order is out for delivery" email which precedes the "your order is delivered one". And some places might split up the delivery into parts so you get even more despite being delivered together (in some cases in the same box!).
Worse is if they require a phone number then text you each and every step as well as email you. Some places you can "opt out" of texting but then the next order will just repeat the process.
All I want is an order confirmed email, and an order shipped email with the tracking number. I get maybe some people want a "delivered" email but I don't even want that, I'll see it, it can sit there an hour it's ok; if it's something really important I'll be looking at the tracking anyhow.
And while I'm complaining, it sure would be great to get rid of the syrupy language some use: "Get excited!!! Your order is being packed!!!!" Yes, I am glad I will receive a bunch of paper towels, but it is, I can assure you, not exciting.
P.S. edit: I just got two emails a few minutes ago (both for the same single order) stating that my order was on the way and would arrive... in twenty minutes. Which I think is a new one, I don't think I've gotten an "your order is less than half hour away" email before.
Almost all order flows (like shoply, for instance) have phone number as a required field… But they do no validation.
You can just enter a fake prefix+number with plausible NPA.
You should use a fake prefix because you don’t want some poor random person getting your delivery updates…
Most don't spam texts, but those that do I've switched out. And yeah, I should probably use a fake number so whoever has Jenny's number in my area code doesn't get messages about how a toilet tank gasket is being delivered from Home Depot to my house...
In contrast I’m a fan of the overeager messages for actual updates like these presented.
It is just when after said delivery that I then end up on a mailing list where I get sent something seemingly daily from a single vendor that I’m less pleased.
Same here. Back in 1999 buying something of a yahoo market website was a crapshoot and you didn’t know what was going on till you got it. I have no issue with overzealous updates. But after that; go away! I know you exist.
It's honestly one of his worst videos, but Jon Bois has quite thoroughly documented how many mattresses they tried to sell him as a result of him buying a mattress. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n36R8xlhe1U
Jon Bois worst video is still better than 99.9% of all videos.
I strongly suspect that "Do not send me marketing emails" at checkout time ACTUALLY means "Wait 6 months before sending me marketing emails, when I might plausibly forget that I checked this box", because I always do my best to opt out of mailing lists and I always seem to start getting stuff anyway 6-12 months after making a purchase. The Silicon Valley model of consent strikes again.
They classify it as "transactional" emails (like what is supposed to be order receipts, shipping updates, etc) and so "decide" they can send you an "order update" to an "existing customer with a business relationship" 6 months later, instead of adding you to the spam list immediately.
I just received a marketing email from Dell, and in the footer they claimed it was a transactional message. The last transaction I made with them was 3 years ago!
It's insane - I rarely want marketing emails (there are some I do, new products from Saddleback Leather are always interesting) but when I do actually find out about some new product that's desirable, I find that I never get marketing emails for it, even if I'm signed up to things you would think would cover it!
Apple knows who I am, what I've bought, and I'm not unsubscribed from all, and yet they've never told me about the Neo, though they did send me an email talking about the event that might have been the one that revealed it.
I actually really enjoy getting this sequence of emails but I use Gmail’s auto categorization so it just goes in the “Updates” folder and gets auto-forwarded to my claw-like so it’s not super interrupty. I prefer to have the full trace on my side rather than on the provider side because their site might go down and so on.
I can see why people get annoyed. It’s just the alternative that I really dislike.
This way I can do all analysis on my own side or search for status on my side. I prefer to own the data and have it pushed in a timely manner.
All I need when I buy something online is the shipping tracking number. That's it. I don't need an invoice. What am I going to do with that, print it out and stare at it? I don't need constant tracking updates. I can get these myself with the tracking number. I don't need to know it was delivered (again, tracking number, and I can also just look on the porch with my eyeballs). I don't need any of the other sales-spam that always seems to accompany these orders. An online merchant shouldn't even need my E-mail address. I should be able to click "buy" and the next page shows me the tracking number. That's the only relationship I want with you!
I would never want to not receive a receipt for an online purchase unless it was a $5 doodad that I didn’t even care if it arrived. You are out there on that one. If i want to know when i bought something for a warranty searching my email is the way.
The sales spam is obviously out of control though. But i just have a separate email address for shopping and a filter that marks anything with the word unsubscribe or manage your preferences as read and puts it in a folder I never open. I shouldn’t have to do that but i shouldn’t have to run an adblocker either.
An invoice/receipt is often necessary for booking purposes, reimbursements, taxes, etc. But to your point, just put it in the same email as the tracking number and move on.
Well not every company automatically generates a label on purchase so they have to come separately unless you want to wait a day for your receipt.
I appreciate having a receipt. There are plenty of times when I’ve had to look up info about a past purchase. When did I buy it? How much did it cost last time? Which model did I end up choosing?
Certainly not for every product but enough that I appreciate it
Your comment getting flagged is ludicrous. I regularly search invoices for exactly those reasons.
I'm particularly fond of the senders who know there are nominally laws about spam, so they just label every piece of marketing and customer retention garbage as pertaining to your user account, or they layer some subscription-related language over a promotion al email. I uploaded photos to a printing service over a decade ago and long since unsubscribed from their marketing lists. Two months ago they started sending me bi-weekly "reminders" that my old photos would be purged soon but offering me a discount subscription to their cloud storage. They then sent me at least three weekly reminders. The thing is, none of the links in the email would send me to the page to download old information (which it turns out I had already done years ago, presumably on prompt of some other spam) or information on deleting that content myself.
The other classic of the genre is mailing list software that stores opt-out preferences separate of customer account data such that when they move to a different marketing service or their retention policy tolls out you start getting spam again, exactly 5 years after you opted out.
That is likely a violation of CAN-SPAM.
Dual purpose emails (transactional + advertising) are generally still considered as commercial and are usually covered.
It would have to be enforced, but still.
Sometimes for those I just log in and switch my email to some throwaway or I setup a rule in my inbox to immediately junk it.
Poland is always like this, for "good" reasons. The American shopping experience is a breath of fresh air in comparison.
Our workflow is often something like this:
1. "Verify your account" (before you buy).
2. Order has been accepted.
3. [From the payment gateway, we typically don't do credit cards for online transactions]: Payment required.
4. [Your bank, via a push notification]: Please confirm this transaction, typical EU overregulation 3D Secure crap.
5. [Your bank, Push]: Card payment.
6. [Payment gateway, after you're redirected to their site and complete payment] Payment succeeded.
7. [Store]: We have received your payment.
8. [Store, one business day later]: Here's the invoice you requested. Spoiler, no invoice was actually requested.
9. [Store]: Here's the tracking number for your parcel.
10. [Parcel Delivery app, you practically need one to open parcel lockers, our favorite method for getting almost anything, if you don't want to deal with the hassle of SMS]: Your parcel has been registered.
10. [Parcel app]: Your parcel is on the way.
11. [Parcel app] Your parcel is ready for collection.
12. [Store]: Your package has been delivered.
Most of these are no-opt-out.
That list doesn't include any marketing, "how did you like your Order" or "Please review this Seller" emails. If there's another intermediary in the mix, like Allegro (our local Amazon / eBay alternative that most people order from), there can sometimes be a bunch more.
Interesting how you need a separate app to open parcel lockers in Poland. In the Czech Republic the locker provider just sends you an email/SMS (as a part of the "ready for collection" message) with a code that you type on the locker's keyboard, which is sometimes physical, sometimes a touch screen, and the locker opens, no app needed.
I don't use the app (I guess it's about InPost). I usually just scan a QR code that I recieve to my inbox. Code from SMS also works just fine.
Never give out your email. Just hand out proxy addresses. Have a couple in your wallet\phone casing for when you need to give one right away without time to generate it.
No spam. Or if you get some, one click to stop receiving mail from a specific proxy.
Takes some using to, and some work each time you give out an email address. But so does sifting through a ton of spam, because you didn't care enough to only give out a proxy address.
The worst abusers are the ones that mix vital emails with marketing and fluff. In the US you have to deal with the Social Security Administration your entire adult life. You need to deal with them while paying into the program during the working years and also while cashing out in retirement. So you can't just ignore communications with them, but yet most emails are fluff like holiday greetings, reminders not to be scammed (which are repeats of the same advice they gave in all previous emails).
Banks also do this, but they at least use the same subject lines that I can auto-filter.
I'm in the UK. I have several bank accounts, both personally and for business.
For my four personal accounts my last email was last October, and the one before that was last July.
For my business accounts I have most set to email me a statement every month (automations attached).
I wonder if there is some sort of regulation specific to the UK that stops them.
Edit: egg on my face. The article’s author suggested the same service. Heh. Anyways…
I highly recommend a service like SimpleLogin. It allows for dynamic wildcards:
- store1@my.domain - whatever@my.domain - @my.domain
All gets fwd to my real email and I can kill any address from my email client by unsubscribing (or login to the SimpleLogin interface)
You can go further and use subdomains or pattern matching to send things to different addresses like your spouse and friends. e.g.
- @friend.my.domain -> friend@gmail.com - *@spouse.my.domain -> babe@example.com
Not affiliated, just really happy with the service
I do this. But I hit a wall with shopify. They only allow 5 email addresses to be bound to an account and only one account to one phone number. So now I cannot get tracking information from about a dozen online stores that at some point or another switched to shopify after I already made a custom email for them
I've been using Proton Mail and iOS (through iCloud+) for this. Almost every purchase online goes through a proxy, and once the item is delivered, the email deleted.
This has a side benefit of being able to sign up to the popup modals for like, 10-20% off a first purchase.
Some sites do not parse the emails correctly though (if they contain periods, etc) and it's also hard to order track.
I find it's worth the trouble to have a relatively quiet inbox.
I use a wildcard proxy. Like msg-BUSINESS@example.com. Each business gets it's own alias. I can just generate them at the point of sale without any prior configuration.
If a particular business annoys me it's quite easy to start managing their emails separately.
Incredibly useful for when a company gets acquired and their old transactional email database is turned into a marketing database.
I've internalized the delete shortcut in gmail and configured one of the swipe directions in the app to be delete. For a long time, I archived every email, but there's so much crap like this now to wade through.
I also discovered that a busy local mailing list was sending images as attachments that counted against my quota, so even more incentive to delete instead of archive.
Machines write emails, people don't.
So it is just "mark as read" every day or week, and move on skimming mail senders, and rarely any headings, and nearly never message bodies.
Or for such a company, make a filter and clear out the subfolder every half year or when check only there is an issue with an order.
Assuming the message actually contains information, and not a login link, lots of email updates is great. It means I automatically get a local copy of the message stored, so if I want to look it up, I have it immediately available, regardless of my current network connectivity.
I use Gmail's support for aliases, by putting a '+' symbol after my user name, followed by a alias, so that the messages can be easily filtered. I then add the alias to Gmail's server-side filtering to move the message to an IMAP folder for messages from vendors/distributors.
I love the combination of Posteo and Bitwarden. Any email I use has a "+random letters and numbers" generated for that entry to combat spam. If I need better privacy separation, I have my main email with my name, then an alias with random letters and numbers.
Doordash has become better, but they use to do the same thing with notifications:
Your order has been placed! > Your order is being prepared! > Bob is on route to pick up your order! Bob is waiting for your order! Message from Bob: I'm waiting for your order! > Your order has been picked up! > Message from Bob: I'm on my way! > Your order is approaching! > Your order has arrived! > Your order was dropped off! > Please rate your dasher! > etc etc etc
The only reason I never completely turned off notifications was because there was one I actually needed: my order was dropped off...
> The only reason I never completely turned off notifications was because there was one I actually needed: my order was dropped off...
And of course there's no way to manage your notifications granularly to only get the ones that you actually want and filter the rest
Companies want to publish marketing about how they empower users but they absolutely do not actually want to empower users if they can help it
Your notifications about your orders are bundled with their marketing notifications (on iphone at least). So if you dont want ads, you have to turn off order updates too
I pay for Fastmail.com precisely for their unlimited aliases and masked addresses.
Since virtually everything now requires creating an account (thanks marketers, bots, AI agents), I always use throwaway emails + privacy tools.
I just ordered a dishwasher from Lowes, and that translated to 16 text messages from them, including asking if my address was correct, asking 3 times if the delivery date worked for me. I appreciated 2 of them: Your delivery window is 9:30-1:30, you are stop 7, the driver just finished the delivery before you and is headed your way.
There's a right number of times to text me about a delivery that is going exactly as planned, and 16 is not that number.
Friend of mine told me they bought some music-related item and they got several emails but also an AI generated video of the CEO or something like that personally thanking them for their purchase. Super weird.
The video said something along the lines of "Hey {name} I am the CEO... I want to personally thank you for your purchase".
I can't remember if they bought whatever it is from Instagram through an ad on there so a super social/ad heavy space anyway.
I'll just suggest -- I don't think they have A/B tested the right amount of emails. There was a time when companies optimized this sort of stuff, but the cost of researching that vs. just sending every opportunistic email possible is too great. This doesn't really matter except that we give companies too much credit for stuff like this. They're just kind of...doing stuff, for better or worse.
My bank doesn’t include any text in their emails, just one large picture.
Is it an important update on accounts? Gotta give them that e-mail open signal to know!
No, it was just an ad saying if I buy a BMW this week d they’ll give me a discount on the loan. Gee, thanks.
I gave up on inbox zero a long time ago, so it isn't the emails themselves that bother me as much as the notifications that I get through my phone and smartwatch.
I now run each notification through an LLM and give it instructions on what to filter out. I accidentally disabled it recently and was startled at the flood of notifications--like when you browse the internet without an ad blocker and forget how bad it is.
i am no fan of spam. but i am totally fine (and expect, really) to receive email #s 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 8 on this 10 point list.
- 1 confirms my order was received, and im not left thinking i ordered something when it wasnt processed.
- 3, 4, 6, 7 are all good for ensuring my order didnt get lost in the process and lets me schedule my day if needed.
- proof of delivery (8) is good for records, disputes, or just knowing that i should pop over to my house on lunch so the item isnt sitting outside all day.
however, i do use my own domain and unique addresses per store (e.g. "walmart@example.com" if i need a walmart account for whatever reason), so that if/when companies start doing the "we miss you", "please rate us", "seriously, please rate us, you havent yet :(" or whatever, i can immediately bin it.
catchall is also super convenient for automatically organizing emails. anything with a "to" address of "walmart@example.com" goes straight into the "walmart" folder.
Same. Also if one created an account before that order that would be another 3 or 4 emails.
What pisses me the most is getting the same information over Whatsapp too - just a few minutes earlier!
Same here - almost identical for me.
I make a habit of training the spam filter to catch all the non-important emails produced on a purchase.
Tracking link for shipment? Thank you!
Random email about how to 'best use' my purchase (advertise other products) - instant spam flag.
This has worked quite well, though occasionally the filter gets it wrong.
For most of ecom you lose money acquiring a customer, and can only hope to break even by emailing them and going for repeat purchases.
A few ecom folks manage to acquire customers without losing money.
Typically it's via a "welcome kit" that costs $150+ to cover ads.
It's better than it was back in the 90s. Imagine that, but as physical mail. Oh, and they sent a separate copy to your billing contact, which was at the same address, and was also you.
This is convenient tracking. Worse is the daily marketing you never opted into.
Apple hide my email was a great solution to this, I feel like we need a proper open source alternative. Basically a relay inbox that is ephemeral and you can discard once you’re done.
I've been getting an email from Jessica at BMW for last 30 days after inquiring about a car.
The issue is that I want to see the email that says my order shipped so I can drop the tracking number into parcel.
The trustpilot begging emails are the worst IMO. I didn't agree to TP having my email address, so why are they contacting me...again and again and again???
You'd love AliExpress. There's probably 20-25 emails per order as there are so many tracking steps. But I like it, just automatically move them to a folder.
Not to mention the endless stream of marketing emails you'll get forever after.
I highly recommend using an email alias service. The author mentions SimpleLogin. I've been using Firefox Relay for a few years and it's great!
Just emails? I get all that plus half a dozen text messages.
STOP
Permanently block this number? [yes] [no]
Is there a technical limitation why these never seem to be grouped into a thread? I generally appreciate the updates on my package, but I also value a tidy inbox.
Which mailing frontend for normies has threaded views?
Gmail (at least in Google Workspace) and Outlook 365 both do threaded emails.
No, GMail does not.
The word has been corrupted beyond all meaning, primarily by Google. GMail has a thing they call "threads", which isn't a threaded view. A threaded view is at least a tree, that shows the actual who-replied-to-who of an email chain, which itself is (hopefully) a DAG.
GMail's "threads" are also heuristically grouped (which is good b/c, as another comment here notes, programmers are terrible at emitting the correct header), but also will just sometimes arbitrarily break emails which do share a common ancestor into separate threads.
As it is, Google has so ruined people's ability to communicate that it is not uncommon to see GMail users reply to the wrong email, b/c they're just replying to the last email in the set of emails sharing a common ancestor.
Now ever third app has "threads", like Slack, where "thread" is a flat, one layer-deep thing, and half the time nobody can tell who is responding to who anymore. (And seemingly nobody understand how to blockquote, either. Half my coworkers use inline code spans for blockquote, for whatever reason.)
Companies too lazy or unwilling to set a thread id.
Only one "are you happy with your purchase?" follow-up email? He should count himself lucky...
pretty soon we won't be reading books or emails. We have have AI filters. Maybe we won't even be reading our friends or partners message either, mostly fluff anyways?
I feel like the author is overly cynical here. You get so many updates because there's so much information available about your delivery, and I for one appreciate having it! I wish there was as standardized format so my e-mail client could just roll it all up into one status box but it's hardly the end of the world.
Ugh... same feelings here... looking at you, eBay.
Actually, four emails, not ten. Author writes as if it’s some conspiracy of sellers and shipping companies to maximise the number of emails. Each sends with any excuse they have. The email is treated as a drop box of transactional notes that business sends to customers inbox so customer can always find that info if they would have a need. It’s not frivolous sending that we need to fix but some standard of “receipt” folders, like Gmail auto folders in half-assed way. So these emails bypass inbox directly to special folder. And it should have a standard name so customer service can say “look in your Receipts folder”.
And Two “We received your order” is unnecessary, as well as “create account”. But if they send those it must be working? Or they send even is only handful of people click on them?
problem that would be solved if clients were a little better at grouping emails
Hum... Except for the 2 emails asking for feedback, I don't see any problem with that.
Do you get overwhelmed by emails tracking items you brought? You expect stores not to communicate with you about active contracts you've already paid for and have actions pending from their part? Why exactly do you think that's a problem?
Because I never engage with them and they clutter my inbox, especially if I make more than one purchase in the same period.
One email, with the receipt and the tracking number is enough for me, everything else is just noise to me.
I totally agree that it is not an important problem: it is a nitpick, but that is why I think it is a problem.
I hate the "Give feedback"/"Review the item you bought ..." emails.
I'm sitting here, fantasizing creating an automation where whenever one of these hits my inbox, I'll have an LLM agent go to the page and give the most negative feedback it can muster.
Just wait until you _don't_ buy something...
Throw some items in your cart and enjoy all the emails reminding you to check out, look at similar items, share with your friends, and use discounts before they expire!
"We've delivered your item" I suspect is required from their point of view due to their annoying proclivity to deliver items on a door step instead of where they meant to which is to a person. CYA
Wait until you see the tracking data that led to your purchase.
oh you've just bought a washing machine, you will now see ads for washing machines during the next 3 months
Haha truth
Maybe for you it’s a problem, I personally know people that if they don’t get these emails they start calling support services to know where’s the order or what’s the update.
These actually don't bother me so much.
What bothers me is when I give an email at a store for receipt or refund purposes, and they take that as an opt-in to multiple marketing emails per week. And removing myself from the list often takes multiple attempts at "unsubscribe".
If I don't explicitly opt-in to marketing, I should never get marketing. Ahem, Microcenter.
Having proxy addresses is nice. But I can't just kill an alias if I'm using the email for refunds, or if I use the service multiple times. Also don't want to generate and read off alias emails when I'm at a cash register.
Another reason for this is for the seller to protect themselves and give themselves proof against scumbag customers who then lie to get the product for free etc...
The more emails and info you can demonstrate that you sent to the customer the more proof you have in case they try to scam you.